Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam bro BMZ and all,
Sorry for the late reply mate, got busy with my work that was accumulated on me while translating sura 2, 20 verses a day, I actually can't do that with the rest of the Quran, I was a bit over optimistic, what I will do is some how distribute my time between what I have to do and of course translating the Quran is a high priority between�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s
anyway, here is another tough issue that I faced in sura 2, I will appreciate your feedback because as you proved already to us that your feedback is a great help, btw after finishing all the tough issues then we will edit sura 2 to what we all agreed on
the next one may be simple however it stumped me for a long time man,
in the Quran we have two common words that were used numerous times, the two words are so common that they are even used in public language by the Arabs
the first word is احسان, Ihsaan, the word is actually simple t translate, I believe it means Kindness
however most of the times another word appears with the above word
the second word is معروف, Maroof, this is actually a tough word to translate, for the first glance I thought it means Kindness, but that has to be wrong because in many verses both appear together describing two things that are opposite,
The divorce is (allowed) twice, then keeping (the wives) lawfully or let (the wives) go with kindness; and it is not lawful for you to take any thing of what you have given them (the wives), unless both fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah; so if you fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah, then there should be no blame on them for what she has sacrifised herself; these are the limits of Allah, therefore do not exceed it and whoever exceeds the limits of Allah, then these are the unjust. [Al Quran ; 2:229]
-> the above verse is talking about divorce, and it tells the men to either keep their wives with Maaroof or let them go with Ihasan
as you can see, Maaroof was used to describe keeping the wives and Ihsaan was used to describe letting them go
you can also see that I translated the word Ihasan to kindness, however for the word Maaroof, I translated it to lawfully
my problem is with the word Maaroof ads I stated earlier, the word is so common in Arabic and it can may mean two things:
1) is known
2) a favour
in fact the word I'iml Maroof is very common in the day to day life of the Arabs, it means Do a favour
the main meaning of word is is known this is coming from the verb Arafa which is to know, however Maaroof is on the wazn of Maafool, i.e. it means: is Known
that is why it is (interchangeably) used with the meaning Favour because a favour is something that is certainly KNOWN between the parties involved, sort of because it is known then the one who had the favour done to him knows that he has to pay it back one day without being reminded, sort of a common LAW that is KNOWN, in fact in the very primitive areas in the middle east in many countries the communities have their own law and it is called Aruf, i.e. it became law by commonly known, i.e. common law.
that is why I translated it to Lawfully, i.e. when we keep the wives then we should keep them not to abuse them rather keep them LAWFULLY, and the law here is the Quran
In other locations btw, it can't be lawfully, and that is why I'm stumped
What do you think bro?
Cheers
BMZ wrote:
Salaams, Ahmed
Salam Brother
BMZ wrote:
Thanks for your kind words. I will try my best to explain the difference between the usage of the words Ihsaan and Ma'aroof in the verses.
No worries mate, I'm really delighted that you are a member on FI, so we learn from your knowledge
BMZ wrote:
But before we do that, all of us should keep in mind that the language of Qur'aan is the language which was spoken by the tribes of Mecca and Quraish.
Of course, we are only trying to help those non Arabic speakers with the will of Allah.
BMZ wrote:
There are many people still living in the vicinity of Mecca and they are coming directly from the generations of people from the prophet's time. Many scholars have gone and lived among them just for the sake of the knowledge of Meccan Arabic, it's idioms, proverbs, satire, figuratives, etc,
Sure, but that is not enough for us to follow what we heard about those schilars unless what they claim is undisputable and well supported by the Quran.
BMZ wrote:
If all of us try to translate and understand Qur'aan on the basis of our knowledge of modern Arabic,
Not really mate that I do that, for me the Arabic of the Quran is very well spotted through its linguestics and its balagha, I can know the modern Arabic from the Quran Arabic with ease, this is because I studied the Lugha Arabia Fusha at school "the Arabic of the Quran", for example the word Maaroof, I believe it is used in the Quran to mean, kindness, favour and known, I believe all three meaning appeared in three different locations, I will need to confirm that please, therefore what i based my thoughts on regarding Maaroof was the fact that i remember reading differnt meanings to it in the Quran, I thought that there might be a generic english word that accomadate alll meanings, but I;m happy to translate it according to its context in every location, I have no problem with that.
BMZ wrote:
we will encounter difficulty in explaining, as the meanings, in English, will not be the same and it would be very hard to find the right words in English. I was also stumped for a long time, you are not alone, bro.
That was a bit of relief mate, I felt stupid for some time,
BMZ wrote:
I don't have any Arabic software or keyboard,
neither do I btw, , true
BMZ wrote:
so please allow me to explain verse by verse:
"At-talaaqo mar-rataan". Most scholars translate this verse as "Divorce is permitted twice."
true but as you know that the word permitted was not in the Arabic text, it is just logically understood.
BMZ wrote:
This means a divorce can be revoked twice. This comes as a warning that there should be no more divorce after two pronounced and that would be the last chance to save a marriage. After the third divorce is announced, it is all gone and the marriage ends.
Agreed
BMZ wrote:
Now we come to "Fa-imsaa-kum bema'arufin au tasreehum be-ahsaan.", which simply means,"So hold it together fairly or part nicely."
sounds good to me
BMZ wrote:
In other words, if you want to stick together, hold it together in all mutual fairness or part in a good manner.
great
BMZ wrote:
I have thus made slight changes in your translation and hope you agree with it.
Thank you, please do it when you feel it's needed
BMZ wrote:
"The divorce is (allowed) twice. They should hold together in all fairness or part nicely; and it is not lawful for you (men) to take any thing of what you (men) have given them (the wives), unless both fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah; so if you (the judges) fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah, then there should be no blame on them for what she has given up to free herself. These are the limits of Allah, therefore do not exceed it and whoever exceeds the limits of Allah, then these are the unjust.
[Al Quran ; 2:229]
Great, it sound perfect to me
BMZ wrote:
You must have noted that the words on their own have varying meanings but in the usage of Qur'aan's Arabic, the meanings are not exactly what they are in modern Arabic.
I agree, that is why the context is very important
BMZ wrote:
Does this help, bro? Please advise.
of course it did, and that is how I will translate it, however I may come back with the same two words in another two locations in sura 2 just in case I have a problem fitting fairly and nicely in there.
BMZ wrote:
You gave me a very tough assignment
I really enjoy it bro, I hope at least that you enjoy it.
BMZ wrote:
but I am glad you gave me the chance of earning some sawaab. JazakAllah. Good Night. Had a very tiring day but this was more important.
The thanks is for Allah for giving us such opportunity by sending such great book to us.
BMZ wrote:
Verses like "wa ahsinoo" meaning "and do good" and "Wa Ahsin kamaa ahasanallaho ilaika" meaning "And do good like Allah has done good for you" are clearly talking about "doing good" or "being good".
Agreed
BMZ wrote:
In Surah Luqmaan, "ya bunaiyya aqimis-salaata wamur bil-ma'arufay wanha anil munkaray" clearly shows the usage of the words in their own meanings, which are "O my son, establish prayers regularly, enjoin what is just and forbid what is wrong." Now the word Ma'aroof here means just, right and good. Mukar can be unjust, wrong and evil. You see bro, how tough is the choice of the words?
BMZ
can't agree more man, well, we can only do our best and leave the rest on Allah
take care bro and thanks for your help
Posted:
Sat 27 Oct, 2007 2:08 pm
BMZ Moderator
Status: Age: 76 Faith: Islam Gender:
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You are welcome, Ahmed.
How I wish that all Islamic countries introduce the learning of Qur'aan as a subject from the primary to matriculation (Australian) and they can see amazing results.
The results that Allah, the Lord Almighty and prophet achieved within 23 years by educating a people who were the greatest disbelievers of God in the world.
The simple and clear message, in the language they spoke, was perfectly heard and understood by those folks and they accepted it. What a wonder that was! SubhaanAllah.
Salaams
BMZ
Posted:
Sat 27 Oct, 2007 5:20 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
BMZ wrote:
You are welcome, Ahmed.
Cheers mate
BMZ wrote:
How I wish that all Islamic countries introduce the learning of Qur'aan as a subject from the primary to matriculation (Australian) and they can see amazing results.
great idea, however what they do now is make the kids memorise while they understand nothing in it
BMZ wrote:
The results that Allah, the Lord Almighty and prophet achieved within 23 years by educating a people who were the greatest disbelievers of God in the world.
Exactly
BMZ wrote:
The simple and clear message, in the language they spoke, was perfectly heard and understood by those folks and they accepted it. What a wonder that was! SubhaanAllah.
Salaams
BMZ
Indeed bro, it's amazing
BTW mate, I have done the changes in sura 2 regarding your feedback of and it is not that Allah is unaware of what you do, please check it out in sura 2, I think it appeared in 5 verses
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Baal wrote:
Hey Ahmed, I am going over the translations from 2:1 to 2:20. So far, your translation seems more honest then the 3 buffoons who keep interpreting instead of translating.
Hello
I can only do my best while acceoting help from any
Baal wrote:
I would recommend you do not use any Comma. The koran does not use commas so you should steer clear from them.
I have to looke carefully into this recomendation, it makes a bit of sense to me however I will also consider replacing the commas with dots, I will seek further advice regarding this suggestion
Baal wrote:
In 2:2 should "Muttakeen" be pious?
Not bad at all, however can you suggest a word for the VERB Yattaqi?
Baal wrote:
In 2:3 should Ghayb be "Unknown" instead of "Unseen"?
I agree with you, I will consider this cjange in the next check through
Baal wrote:
In 2:4 "Unzila Ilayk" should be "Descended to you"? Descended is closer to the original text and gives more taste.
I disagree with this because the action of decending imlies that it descended by itself, however Onzila means that some one made to descende therefore I have to use the words "was sent down" better that was made to descend"
Baal wrote:
In 2:7. Your translation is accurate. But If the Arabic is not accurate. Nothing you can do about that I guess.
2:7 said: "their heartS .. their Hearing .. their VisionS"
Hearts and visions is plural and hearing is not.
Ok, I will look into that and fix accordingly
Baal wrote:
2:8: It refers to the "Last Day". In 2:4 you referred to the "Akhira" as the "Hereafter". Now in 2:8 you refer the "al yawm al akhar" as the "last day". Maybe pick a word-translation Standard and stick to it for the whole book. (maybe you already did, i only read 8 verses so far)
That is something I'm keen of doing which is whatever I use for a word must be the same all over the Quran, however with some words this is impossible, like the word Maaroof which means Lawfully in some verses and means Kindky in another and popssible means Known in another place.
regarding Al Akhirah and Al Yawm Al Akhar, they are not the same regarding the arabic words, and sure Al yam Al Akar is two words so the last day is most suited, Al Akhira is one word so the hearafter is suited unless you come up with a word to replace the hearafter that should mean Al Akhira, possibly the Last however using it as such may be vague under english.
Baal wrote:
2:9 I am having a problem with 2:9. How can we translate "Yukhade'oon" and "Yakhda'oon"? Do they both translate to the same English word? possible, I need to look more into this.
sure, let me know if you disciver anything that relates to 2:9
Baal wrote:
2:10 "so Allah increased them in their disease ", I would say "increased their disease in them". As it stands, your translation implies that "allah increased them"
I agree, I will change accordingly
Baal wrote:
Also in 2:10 :
"for them, there shall be a painful suffering because they were lying."
I would say:
"for them a painful suffering by what they were lying."
I agree again, I always prefer less words to refelect the arabic words. will change accordingly
Baal wrote:
2:13 "Sufaha" you translated to fool. Your translation is one of the possible meaning but you have to put other meanings in a footnote. ie: feeble-minded, shameless, impudent, etc..
I agree however I will concentrate on the footnotes, comments and the flash movies after I finish the whole Quran with at least one checkup inshaallah
Baal wrote:
I would also like to add that "Sufaha" is considered a dirty word, a word unfit for a book from god, but you have no hand in that ahmed.
In fact the word Safaha is Lugha Arabia Fusha and only those who use Arabic professional will use it.
Baal wrote:
2:14 "And When they meet" could be "And if they find"
Look mate, I'm going to copy this comment to Sura 2 comments and feedback thread and take it from there, I need to llok carefully into what you are suggesting and I will lose the thread if I leave it in here, I will contniue replying to it on my web site later tonight inshaallah, cheers
Baal wrote:
2:14 "Kaloo" sometimes you translate it to "They say" (2:13, 2:11) and sometimes to "They said". Pick one and stick to it as a Standard.
Also you are assigning 2 different tenses to "Lakou" and "Kaloo"
2:14 "We believed; but when" should be "We believed and if"
2:14 "We are with you, we were only mockers." should be "We are with you BUT we were only mockers."
2:15 There is Two errors:
1. Yamiddum implies he 'increases their action'.
2. and "unjust" should be 'unjustness' or something like that.
I recommend a verse that looks like this:
"Allah mocks them and extends (supplies, assists) them in their tyranny (to wander) blindly
2:15 You have to add a footnote to this verse to put more meanings for "yamidduhum".
I also recommend you pick a meaning for Tughyan (tyranny?) and stick to is as a Standard for the translation.
2:16 There is a tense problem here. I recommend a verse that looks like this:
"Those are the ones who bought the misguidance WITH the guidance so their trade brought no profit, nor were they guided. "
2:17 "lighted" must be "lit"
2:17 "Allah took away" could be "Allah went away"
2:17 There is a mistake in the Arabic verse: "Like a guy that lit a fire and Allah went away with THEIR fire and left THEM in the dark" Why is the koran saying THEY when he is talking about a single person lighting a fire. But this is an Arabic problem, not yours.
2:17 And the verse is horrible. It is the quintessential verse that describes Islam. People lit a light and allah took away their light and left them in the dark. Nothing you can do about that I guess.
2:20 "lighted" must be "lit" or "lights" (depends on which tense you pick)
2:20 "snatches" and 'lighted' and 'wished' are Two different tenses, so pick one.
2:20 "Wa Iza" should be "And If" not "And When". "Wa Hina" could mean "And When". Be precise and pick a Standard for your translation.
2:20 "And if Allah wished, He could" I recommend "And if Allah wished, he would". Allah can wish 'to want' to do something. Allah will not wish to 'be able' to do something.
ie: "If Allah wishes, he could fly." vs. "If Allah wishes he would fly".
2:20 Same problem in Arabic as in 2:7 : "Their VisionS and their Hearing". But nothing you can do about that.
2:20 "indeed Allah is able to do everything." it sounds weak in English. I recommend "indeed Allah is upon everything capable." or "Allah is capable upon everything" or use anything else that sounds stronger then the existing text.
Cheers, I will go through the rest as time goes.
Posted:
Tue 13 Nov, 2007 5:09 pm
The Rook
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Posts: 529
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Quote:
2:17 There is a mistake in the Arabic verse: "Like a guy that lit a fire and Allah went away with THEIR fire and left THEM in the dark" Why is the koran saying THEY when he is talking about a single person lighting a fire. But this is an Arabic problem, not yours.
# that one has been on my mind for a long time; the shift from singular to plural!
...the way i understand it, the similitude of the disbelieving folk is not the one who lights a fire, but the people who, by reason of their wickedness, deprive themselves of the light that the fire throws around;
in chapter 17, v read:
Quote:
017.045 And when thou recitest the Qur'an we place between thee and those who
believe not in the Hereafter a hidden barrier;
017.046 And We place upon their hearts veils lest they should understand it, and in
their ears a deafness; and when thou makest mention of thy Lord alone in the Qur'an,
they turn their backs in aversion.
...it is clear from the above verses that the guidance of the quran is withheld from those who have chosen to disbelieve, so that their hearing avails them not!
Quote:
2:17 And the verse is horrible. It is the quintessential verse that describes Islam. People lit a light and allah took away their light and left them in the dark. Nothing you can do about that I guess.
# it is not the desire of god to misguide them; it is their souls that incline them to disbelief!
...for the same reason, there is nothing horrible about the verse; every soul shall be requited what it strived for...and the decree of god ever is executed!
Posted:
Sun 23 Dec, 2007 11:08 pm
The Rook
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
Quote:
2:17 There is a mistake in the Arabic verse: "Like a guy that lit a fire and Allah went away with THEIR fire and left THEM in the dark" Why is the koran saying THEY when he is talking about a single person lighting a fire. But this is an Arabic problem, not yours.
#...also, it does not say that god went away with their "fire"...the "fire" is still there, but it is its light which they have deprived themselves of!
Posted:
Sun 23 Dec, 2007 11:13 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Thanks brother The
I was not aware that Baal of FFI was alleging that there is an error regarding 2:17, this is a common balagha in the Quran (shifting from plural to singualr), you will notice that there will always be a logical explanation to explain it and the whole purpose at the end of the day is to make the pronouociation of the words togther easier on the tongue
in here Allah is saying that their likeness (a group of them), is like one who lit a fire, i.e. one of them lit a fire, it is not like all the group will try to lit the fire at once, simply one will stand and do it alone, and that is to provide Noor (light) to the whole group with him, then Allah removes their light (the group of those confused believers)
makes great sense to me, in fact I tried to pronounce it using a plural form of the verb Isttawqad, and the devive Al Llazi , as follow:
"Mathalahum Kamathal Al Llazina Isttawqadu Nara....", it is too heavey on the tongue, i can assure you that, now this way it sound very easy and the context is still the same:
"Mathalahum Kamathal Al Llazi Isttawqada Nara...."
Remember one important fact about the Quran that was told to us many times in it, Allah made it easy on the tongue to be remembered with ease
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Posts: 529
Post subject:
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
in here Allah is saying that their likeness (a group of them), is like one who lit a fire, i.e. one of them lit a fire, it is not like all the group will try to lit the fire at once, simply one will stand and do it alone, and that is to provide Noor (light) to the whole group with him, then Allah removes their light (the group of those confused believers)
# well...*that* was the first explanation i had offered to myself!
...however, i later reasoned that the one who lights the fire does not have to be from the party of the condemned ; i.e, the one who lights the fire need not be included in the similitude of the disbelieving folks, and for this reason i quoted 17:45!
...to put it (my current understanding) more plainly, the similitude of the disbelievers is the people who are not benefited from the light of the fire that some well-meaning person ignites!
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